40 replies to this topic

[ChiefInAdel]

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Chiefs fans... Would you do this- 2011 1st rd pick, Dwayne Bowe & 2012 3rd rd pick for Rams 2011 1st rd pick, 2nd overall? (Then take RG3)

Twitter / Nick Wright

Seriously? We're going to start the whole "trade Bowe away" thing again?

[NOLA]

ChiefInAdel, on 03 January 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Seriously? We're going to start the whole "trade Bowe away" thing again?

For RGIII, it might not be a bad idea.

Put it this way: what are we going to win if we don't have anyone better than Cassel throwing it to Bowe? I think the Saints are going to let Colston walk, so, y'know, just throw money at him and draft RGIII.

[ChiefInAdel]

NOLA, on 03 January 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

For RGIII, it might not be a bad idea.

Put it this way: what are we going to win if we don't have anyone better than Cassel throwing it to Bowe? I think the Saints are going to let Colston walk, so, y'know, just throw money at him and draft RGIII.

2 Firsts and a third for RG? is he really that good?

[NOLA]

ChiefInAdel, on 03 January 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

2 Firsts and a third for RG? is he really that good?

I thought it was one player, this year's first, and next year's third for RGII?

As for your question, I don't know if he's that good or not. But I'm willing to entertain the conversation. We're going to have to make some kind of move to get a real quarterback, and the Rams need a receiver.

[ChiefInAdel]

NOLA, on 03 January 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I thought it was one player, this year's first, and next year's third for RGII?

Sorry, i was using the fact that Bowe was a first rounder...

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As for your question, I don't know if he's that good or not. But I'm willing to entertain the conversation. We're going to have to make some kind of move to get a real quarterback, and the Rams need a receiver.

Ok, I get your point...let me ask you this...would you rather see us sign Bowe, or try and sign Colston? We all know Colston won't be on the market long at all, and with FA season actually going the way it should this year...it'll be nutty. Would you call Colston a consolation prize if we can't keep Bowe?

On the other side...why not just make an aggressive charge at Flynn?

that...and why trade with STL at all? The first team that would seriously take RG is Cleveland...Indy, STL, and Min all have their QB's...unless Min decides they don't like their choice from last year...

[NOLA]

ChiefInAdel, on 03 January 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Sorry, i was using the fact that Bowe was a first rounder...

Ah. I don't really look at it that way, but I get it.

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Ok, I get your point...let me ask you this...would you rather see us sign Bowe, or try and sign Colston? We all know Colston won't be on the market long at all, and with FA season actually going the way it should this year...it'll be nutty. Would you call Colston a consolation prize if we can't keep Bowe?

Colston is better than Bowe. Bowe is faster, but Colston has much better hands.

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On the other side...why not just make an aggressive charge at Flynn?

It was only one game. I don't think Flynn is the real deal, but I don't know. RGIII could be a bust, too.

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that...and why trade with STL at all? The first team that would seriously take RG is Cleveland...Indy, STL, and Min all have their QB's...unless Min decides they don't like their choice from last year...

Because STL is going to ransom the pick off to someone if not us. I don't see anyone else moving back.

[AssKickingBoots]

Isn't Bowe scheduled to be a FA? I suppose we could franchise him, but that'd mean we would have to pull the trigger pretty quick on the FA signing of Colston and a trade of Bowe. If that trade fell through, we'd have no QB still and a ridiculous amount of money tied in on Colston and Bowe, not to mention Baldwin and Breaston.

Colston is a very similar player to Bowe physically and statistically. Still, Bowe drops more passes whereas Colston drops virtually none. Bowe is a year younger and probably has a higher ceiling because of his speed, but if anything Colston is an upgrade because of his hands.

I suppose I wouldn't be against it, but stuff like that works alot better in an intellectual vacuum or on Madden or something.

[BigRedChiefsMachine]

Bowe can be an incredible WR, but damn he seems so inconsistent. In the Colts game he looked like the greatest WR in the NFL, but he'll disappear on you sometimes and drop passes. I don't know what he'd look like with a great QB throwing to him - but if we had to trade him to get a great QB I know which one will be more valuable in the long run.

[pentekno2]

Yeah, the details would be still to be worked out, etc. But if we could trade Bowe to end up with RGIII then that might not be the worst move that the team ever made.

[NOLA]

AssKickingBoots, on 03 January 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Colston is a very similar player to Bowe physically and statistically. Still, Bowe drops more passes whereas Colston drops virtually none. Bowe is a year younger and probably has a higher ceiling because of his speed, but if anything Colston is an upgrade because of his hands.

To explain for those not aware, the reason Colston might be an opition is this: the Saints bricked on getting Brees signed before the season, and Tom Condon is his agent. If Brees isn't signed by early March, the Saints will have to franchise him, which means they can't use the tag to protect anybody else, and I can't see how they can get away with signing anyone before Brees' deal gets done without pissing some people (Brees, the fans, Condon) off. In addition to Brees, they have Carl Nicks, Marques Colston, and Robert Meachem as unrestricted free agents. Meachem can probably be signed to a reasonable deal, but Nicks and Colston are going to be expensive. If they don't get Brees signed soon, I can't see how they keep all three. I think Colston might be the odd man out because the Saints are as deep at WR as anyone in the league. Nicks would be another good pick-up, though.

[The_Jonas]

I think people might be surprised how much better Bowe could be without Croyle, Thigpen, Huard, Cassel, Palko... I mean the list of QBs this guy has had to carry is just astonishingly bad.

Still... QB > WR

I'd entertain the idea, especially because I think Baldwin was drafted largely because the team isn't as excited about Bowe as fans are. Maybe he has baggage. I dunno. I just won't be surprised if he's traded or allowed to walk.

[NOLA]

The_Jonas, on 03 January 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

I think people might be surprised how much better Bowe could be without Croyle, Thigpen, Huard, Cassel, Palko... I mean the list of QBs this guy has had to carry is just astonishingly bad.

Still... QB > WR

I'd entertain the idea, especially because I think Baldwin was drafted largely because the team isn't as excited about Bowe as fans are. Maybe he has baggage. I dunno. I just won't be surprised if he's traded or allowed to walk.

I'm wondering if the team's opinion of Bowe is more "Patriot Way" crap... I seem to recall a pattern of the Patriots letting receivers walk and replacing them rather than signing them to expensive deals. Randy Moss might be the only exception to the "don't spend a lot on receivers" rule, but I have no idea how much he was making when they traded for him, or if he had to renegotiate.

[ChiefInAdel]

The_Jonas, on 03 January 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

I think people might be surprised how much better Bowe could be without Croyle, Thigpen, Huard, Cassel, Palko... I mean the list of QBs this guy has had to carry is just astonishingly bad.

Still... QB > WR

I'd entertain the idea, especially because I think Baldwin was drafted largely because the team isn't as excited about Bowe as fans are. Maybe he has baggage. I dunno. I just won't be surprised if he's traded or allowed to walk.

I guess my confusion then seems to lie with your exact argument...

If management and the staff aren't happy with bowe, and the team is willing to trade him or package him into a trade, wouldn't other teams basically see the same thing that our staff did, and not want to have any part of that?

Besides, going into week 15, Bowe and Colston didn't have all that different numbers...reception percentage of 1% (colston 64%, bowe 63%). The biggest difference obviously being the amount of targets (~20)...since Brees pretty much gets to throw it to just about anywhere. But they're really not that much different.

I'm also curious what the difference is between the two players for YATC.

I don't know, i just think it's silly to trade your "premier" pass catcher plus draft picks for a QB that you don't know if he's going to be successful or not. If this was for a FA like Manning (barring the injury issues), then yeah, hell yeah...package him in a trade and pick up another WR in the draft. But putting him in for a kid coming out of college (Baylor no less)...i don't know, i just don't see it.

[SPC Hephner]

In a heartbeat I would do that trade. You HAVE to have a very good QB to win in the NFL now. Look how many 4,000 yards passer there were this year. There were 3 5,000 yard passer this season, a feat that was acomplished two other times in NFL history. And Eli Manning was another Victor Cruz TD pass from joining the club, and Aaron Rodgers would have if he played in week 17. Thats almost five 5,000 yard passers in one season. Thank the rules commite for that, but thats another discusion.

I dont want Orton or Cassel. Matt Flyn, no thanks (didnt we just waste three years with a HOF's backup?) Theres the chance Manning would be avaliable, which I wouldnt be opposed to at all. But Manning= 3 yrs, RGIII=12+. If you can get RGIII, take him!!!!

We would have plenty of money in FA to fix glaring needs (RT/NT) and sign a few veterans for depth, and draft what we dont sign. we dont lose any draft picks in this years draft in this scenario.

[BigRedChiefsMachine]

NOLA, on 03 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I'm wondering if the team's opinion of Bowe is more "Patriot Way" crap... I seem to recall a pattern of the Patriots letting receivers walk and replacing them rather than signing them to expensive deals. Randy Moss might be the only exception to the "don't spend a lot on receivers" rule, but I have no idea how much he was making when they traded for him, or if he had to renegotiate.

I wouldn't doubt that. However, the other thing to consider here is that since Pioli has arrived, we've extended Hali, DJ, Flowers, and JC (and now Succop). Bowe's talent is in that range, but to my knowledge we haven't entered into negotiations with Bowe at all. If we plan on letting him hit the market and explore other contracts we might as well franchise and trade if possible. I'd rather get something rather than nothing if he's going to walk (or we want him to).

PS - We should have extended Carr by now. This past season only drove up his value.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the Rams could take Justin Blackmon (WR) from OSU at 2. Not sure Bowe and a third round pick would allow us to simply swap 1st rounders all the way up to 2 with him available. From what I've seen, Blackmon is a pretty great prospect.

[NOLA]

BigRedChiefsMachine, on 03 January 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I wouldn't doubt that. However, the other thing to consider here is that since Pioli has arrived, we've extended Hali, DJ, Flowers, and JC (and now Succop). Bowe's talent is in that range, but to my knowledge we haven't entered into negotiations with Bowe at all. If we plan on letting him hit the market and explore other contracts we might as well franchise and trade if possible. I'd rather get something rather than nothing if he's going to walk (or we want him to).

The reason you outlined--that Bowe's talent is commensurate with the talent we've already extended--is why I'm thinking that Pioli has really demonstrated over the years that he doesn't value top-flight WRs.

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EDIT: It just occurred to me that the Rams could take Justin Blackmon (WR) from OSU at 2. Not sure Bowe and a third round pick would allow us to simply swap 1st rounders all the way up to 2 with him available. From what I've seen, Blackmon is a pretty great prospect.

I heard a great bit from Mike Lombardi today about why he says that WRs are the hardest to evaluate draft prospects: the college game is completely different for them because defenders can't jam them at the line, so they never deal with bump-and-run coverage before the pros. So, arguably, the risk with Blackmon is much higher than with Bowe. Made sense when he explained it, and also why guys like Colston and Cruz succeed while so many top-three picks--Braylon Edwards, every receiver drafted by Matt Millen--was a bust.

[The_Jonas]

ChiefInAdel, on 03 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I guess my confusion then seems to lie with your exact argument...

If management and the staff aren't happy with bowe, and the team is willing to trade him or package him into a trade, wouldn't other teams basically see the same thing that our staff did, and not want to have any part of that?

Besides, going into week 15, Bowe and Colston didn't have all that different numbers...reception percentage of 1% (colston 64%, bowe 63%). The biggest difference obviously being the amount of targets (~20)...since Brees pretty much gets to throw it to just about anywhere. But they're really not that much different.

I'm also curious what the difference is between the two players for YATC.

I don't know, i just think it's silly to trade your "premier" pass catcher plus draft picks for a QB that you don't know if he's going to be successful or not. If this was for a FA like Manning (barring the injury issues), then yeah, hell yeah...package him in a trade and pick up another WR in the draft. But putting him in for a kid coming out of college (Baylor no less)...i don't know, i just don't see it.

Huh?

Teams trade for players who have baggage all the time. Brandon Marshall was a complete bitch in Denver and he had no trouble finding a home

They're getting sick of his act in Miami now too.

I wouldn't trade Bowe. I think he's a good player. I would, however, keep all options open and entertain offers.

What I do not think we should entertain is Matt Cassel or Kyle Orton as our starting QB next season., and any option that makes that a reality should be examined.

[The_Jonas]

BigRedChiefsMachine, on 03 January 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I wouldn't doubt that. However, the other thing to consider here is that since Pioli has arrived, we've extended Hali, DJ, Flowers, and JC (and now Succop). Bowe's talent is in that range, but to my knowledge we haven't entered into negotiations with Bowe at all. If we plan on letting him hit the market and explore other contracts we might as well franchise and trade if possible. I'd rather get something rather than nothing if he's going to walk (or we want him to).

PS - We should have extended Carr by now. This past season only drove up his value.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the Rams could take Justin Blackmon (WR) from OSU at 2. Not sure Bowe and a third round pick would allow us to simply swap 1st rounders all the way up to 2 with him available. From what I've seen, Blackmon is a pretty great prospect.

We should have started working on locking Carr up long term the minute he signed that RFA tender. He's not going to get worse. The guy has been the most consistently improving player on our roster. He makes strides every single season.

[NOLA]

The_Jonas, on 03 January 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

We should have started working on locking Carr up long term the minute he signed that RFA tender. He's not going to get worse. The guy has been the most consistently improving player on our roster. He makes strides every single season.

Does this mean I have to concede that Herm was right about something... anything? I'm not prepared to live in that world.

[autodrummer]

I am for it.