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Raiders Del Rio out, Gruden in?
#11
(01-02-2018, 09:06 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-02-2018, 09:01 AM)ChiefsChick23 Wrote:
(01-02-2018, 08:56 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-02-2018, 08:53 AM)ChiefsChick23 Wrote: I have to wonder if the game hasn't passed him by, but we'll see.

I know I'm probably alone here, but I'm going to miss him on MNF.  That's is close as I'll ever get to actually getting drunk at a bar with an NFL coach while he explains a game to me, whether I want him to or not.  It was nice.

(Ironically, I once saw Jack Del Rio at a bar here at happy hour while he was still HC at Jax.  It was like the first or second Friday of August.  He definitely should have been somewhere else.)

I didn't listen to national announcers much until this past game Chiefs vs. Denver, so I dunno.

I certainly hope that Gannon stays in the broadcast booth.

Pretty sure I've read rumors that Gruden wants Gannon for his coaching staff.  Which is strange because I'm not aware of Gannon having any coaching experience, but who knows?  He's a smart guy.  The money's probably about the same for him at either job.

Gannon ran that team.  

There's a lot of stories about Gannon hating the culture of the Raiders when he showed up and Gruden supported him when he made it his mission to change the culture from one of leisure to one of competition.  

The team was not a fan of Gannon showing up and playing drill sergeant though.  He wasn't exactly beloved by team-mates.  

I think Gruden is kinda over-rated, but the NFL is more fun when he's coaching.
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#12
(01-03-2018, 05:22 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 09:26 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 08:14 AM)tyecopeland Wrote: Reports are than gruden will coaching the raiders next year with an ownership stake. How do you guys feel about that? I like gruden but I don't think he's as an amazing coach as he seems to get credit for being.

I think Gruden and Gannon were Payton and Brees before Payton and Brees.  Which is to say neither the coach nor the QB would look quite as brilliant without the other.

Gruden with Derek Carr could be pretty good, though.  Which would be bad, I guess.  But probably fun to watch.

Gannon was in a perfect situation that went beyond coaching.  He had Garner, Rice, Brown and a damn good offensive line.  That offense was STACKED and in the perfect system.

It's no secret I don't hold Payton in as high regard as you.  Brilliant offensive mind, no doubt.  Brees is a stud anywhere, but probably not madden stats fantasy football god stud he has been under Payton, cos that man can scheme an offense like a master tactician.  I think he'd have won more games if he didn't spend so much of his career with AWFUL defenses, and you have to put that on Payton.  In 11 seasons he's had 7 bottom 10 defenses.  Due to the suspension in '12, which I was against, Brees is even worse.  NO had the 32nd ranked defense in 12, so Brees had played with a bottom 10 defense in 8 of his 12 seasons in New Orleans.  4 of those were bottom 5.     The number of games he's played in where the opposition scored 24 or more is astounding. He also has the 3rd best record in that situation in spite of being in it seemingly every damn week.  I think he's played in about 120+ games (including 12 in '14) in which his D shat all over the place, and he still won about 30% of those games which is VERY good.  The more you really look into specific stats the more Brees stands out.  His deep ball accuracy is unbelievable too compared to anyone over the course of his career.  

I don't think Gannon could have been in any better situation than Gruen, Rice, Brown, Garner, and that OL.  Both statistically and in terms of chances of winning big games.  Perfect system, perfect surroundings, and the perfect coach (that basically let him run the team).

I don't think all of that is true with Brees.  I think he could have won more games somewhere, but wouldn't have put up the same obscene yardage and TD totals.

I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.
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#13
(01-03-2018, 05:26 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:22 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 09:26 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 08:14 AM)tyecopeland Wrote: Reports are than gruden will coaching the raiders next year with an ownership stake. How do you guys feel about that? I like gruden but I don't think he's as an amazing coach as he seems to get credit for being.

I think Gruden and Gannon were Payton and Brees before Payton and Brees.  Which is to say neither the coach nor the QB would look quite as brilliant without the other.

Gruden with Derek Carr could be pretty good, though.  Which would be bad, I guess.  But probably fun to watch.

Gannon was in a perfect situation that went beyond coaching.  He had Garner, Rice, Brown and a damn good offensive line.  That offense was STACKED and in the perfect system.

It's no secret I don't hold Payton in as high regard as you.  Brilliant offensive mind, no doubt.  Brees is a stud anywhere, but probably not madden stats fantasy football god stud he has been under Payton, cos that man can scheme an offense like a master tactician.  I think he'd have won more games if he didn't spend so much of his career with AWFUL defenses, and you have to put that on Payton.  In 11 seasons he's had 7 bottom 10 defenses.  Due to the suspension in '12, which I was against, Brees is even worse.  NO had the 32nd ranked defense in 12, so Brees had played with a bottom 10 defense in 8 of his 12 seasons in New Orleans.  4 of those were bottom 5.     The number of games he's played in where the opposition scored 24 or more is astounding. He also has the 3rd best record in that situation in spite of being in it seemingly every damn week.  I think he's played in about 120+ games (including 12 in '14) in which his D shat all over the place, and he still won about 30% of those games which is VERY good.  The more you really look into specific stats the more Brees stands out.  His deep ball accuracy is unbelievable too compared to anyone over the course of his career.  

I don't think Gannon could have been in any better situation than Gruen, Rice, Brown, Garner, and that OL.  Both statistically and in terms of chances of winning big games.  Perfect system, perfect surroundings, and the perfect coach (that basically let him run the team).

I don't think all of that is true with Brees.  I think he could have won more games somewhere, but wouldn't have put up the same obscene yardage and TD totals.

I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.

It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.
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#14
(01-04-2018, 10:26 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:26 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:22 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 09:26 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 08:14 AM)tyecopeland Wrote: Reports are than gruden will coaching the raiders next year with an ownership stake. How do you guys feel about that? I like gruden but I don't think he's as an amazing coach as he seems to get credit for being.

I think Gruden and Gannon were Payton and Brees before Payton and Brees.  Which is to say neither the coach nor the QB would look quite as brilliant without the other.

Gruden with Derek Carr could be pretty good, though.  Which would be bad, I guess.  But probably fun to watch.

Gannon was in a perfect situation that went beyond coaching.  He had Garner, Rice, Brown and a damn good offensive line.  That offense was STACKED and in the perfect system.

It's no secret I don't hold Payton in as high regard as you.  Brilliant offensive mind, no doubt.  Brees is a stud anywhere, but probably not madden stats fantasy football god stud he has been under Payton, cos that man can scheme an offense like a master tactician.  I think he'd have won more games if he didn't spend so much of his career with AWFUL defenses, and you have to put that on Payton.  In 11 seasons he's had 7 bottom 10 defenses.  Due to the suspension in '12, which I was against, Brees is even worse.  NO had the 32nd ranked defense in 12, so Brees had played with a bottom 10 defense in 8 of his 12 seasons in New Orleans.  4 of those were bottom 5.     The number of games he's played in where the opposition scored 24 or more is astounding. He also has the 3rd best record in that situation in spite of being in it seemingly every damn week.  I think he's played in about 120+ games (including 12 in '14) in which his D shat all over the place, and he still won about 30% of those games which is VERY good.  The more you really look into specific stats the more Brees stands out.  His deep ball accuracy is unbelievable too compared to anyone over the course of his career.  

I don't think Gannon could have been in any better situation than Gruen, Rice, Brown, Garner, and that OL.  Both statistically and in terms of chances of winning big games.  Perfect system, perfect surroundings, and the perfect coach (that basically let him run the team).

I don't think all of that is true with Brees.  I think he could have won more games somewhere, but wouldn't have put up the same obscene yardage and TD totals.

I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.

It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.

I think that I must have a higher opinion of Gannon than you.  Maybe I was just young at the time, but I remember thinking very highly of his accuracy and his ability to scramble.  I felt like he was a legit Pro Bowler, and the only reason he doesn't have a ring is because he was playing against a team coached by his former head coach and a guy who new him and his playbook so well that it really seems like it should've been against some kind of rule for it to even happen.  But it happened to the Raiders, so... funny.

Nice.  Brees is so underappreciated by football fans in my opinion.  I can't believe it.  He wasn't at his peak for long (and he's looking very mortal these days, I'm afraid), but when he was he did things I've never seen from any other quarterback in terms of accuracy and ability to hit receivers downfield and in stride.  It was like watching a video game.  He was Peyton Manning with a more sophisticated OS.

Re: the bolded part: Ok, I'll bite.  How so?  I have a lot of thoughts on this subject myself.
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#15
(01-04-2018, 10:36 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:26 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:26 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:22 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-01-2018, 09:26 AM)NOLA Wrote: I think Gruden and Gannon were Payton and Brees before Payton and Brees.  Which is to say neither the coach nor the QB would look quite as brilliant without the other.

Gruden with Derek Carr could be pretty good, though.  Which would be bad, I guess.  But probably fun to watch.

Gannon was in a perfect situation that went beyond coaching.  He had Garner, Rice, Brown and a damn good offensive line.  That offense was STACKED and in the perfect system.

It's no secret I don't hold Payton in as high regard as you.  Brilliant offensive mind, no doubt.  Brees is a stud anywhere, but probably not madden stats fantasy football god stud he has been under Payton, cos that man can scheme an offense like a master tactician.  I think he'd have won more games if he didn't spend so much of his career with AWFUL defenses, and you have to put that on Payton.  In 11 seasons he's had 7 bottom 10 defenses.  Due to the suspension in '12, which I was against, Brees is even worse.  NO had the 32nd ranked defense in 12, so Brees had played with a bottom 10 defense in 8 of his 12 seasons in New Orleans.  4 of those were bottom 5.     The number of games he's played in where the opposition scored 24 or more is astounding. He also has the 3rd best record in that situation in spite of being in it seemingly every damn week.  I think he's played in about 120+ games (including 12 in '14) in which his D shat all over the place, and he still won about 30% of those games which is VERY good.  The more you really look into specific stats the more Brees stands out.  His deep ball accuracy is unbelievable too compared to anyone over the course of his career.  

I don't think Gannon could have been in any better situation than Gruen, Rice, Brown, Garner, and that OL.  Both statistically and in terms of chances of winning big games.  Perfect system, perfect surroundings, and the perfect coach (that basically let him run the team).

I don't think all of that is true with Brees.  I think he could have won more games somewhere, but wouldn't have put up the same obscene yardage and TD totals.

I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.

It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.

I think that I must have a higher opinion of Gannon than you.  Maybe I was just young at the time, but I remember thinking very highly of his accuracy and his ability to scramble.  I felt like he was a legit Pro Bowler, and the only reason he doesn't have a ring is because he was playing against a team coached by his former head coach and a guy who new him and his playbook so well that it really seems like it should've been against some kind of rule for it to even happen.  But it happened to the Raiders, so... funny.

Nice.  Brees is so underappreciated by football fans in my opinion.  I can't believe it.  He wasn't at his peak for long (and he's looking very mortal these days, I'm afraid), but when he was he did things I've never seen from any other quarterback in terms of accuracy and ability to hit receivers downfield and in stride.  It was like watching a video game.  He was Peyton Manning with a more sophisticated OS.

Re: the bolded part: Ok, I'll bite.  How so?  I have a lot of thoughts on this subject myself.

I'm just not a fan of the committee approach.  I'm a fan of featuring a complete back, and Payton seems committed to always having a specific type of duel backfield.  

To be reductive, it's a power back / speed back type of approach and the speed back rarely gets the bulk of the carries, even when they're the better back.  

That's to say nothing of it's effectiveness.  Payton got 3000 yards out of the RB position this year.  So... yeah.  Obviously he knows what he's doing.
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#16
(01-04-2018, 10:47 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:36 AM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-04-2018, 10:26 AM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:26 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 05:22 PM)The_Jonas Wrote: Gannon was in a perfect situation that went beyond coaching.  He had Garner, Rice, Brown and a damn good offensive line.  That offense was STACKED and in the perfect system.

It's no secret I don't hold Payton in as high regard as you.  Brilliant offensive mind, no doubt.  Brees is a stud anywhere, but probably not madden stats fantasy football god stud he has been under Payton, cos that man can scheme an offense like a master tactician.  I think he'd have won more games if he didn't spend so much of his career with AWFUL defenses, and you have to put that on Payton.  In 11 seasons he's had 7 bottom 10 defenses.  Due to the suspension in '12, which I was against, Brees is even worse.  NO had the 32nd ranked defense in 12, so Brees had played with a bottom 10 defense in 8 of his 12 seasons in New Orleans.  4 of those were bottom 5.     The number of games he's played in where the opposition scored 24 or more is astounding. He also has the 3rd best record in that situation in spite of being in it seemingly every damn week.  I think he's played in about 120+ games (including 12 in '14) in which his D shat all over the place, and he still won about 30% of those games which is VERY good.  The more you really look into specific stats the more Brees stands out.  His deep ball accuracy is unbelievable too compared to anyone over the course of his career.  

I don't think Gannon could have been in any better situation than Gruen, Rice, Brown, Garner, and that OL.  Both statistically and in terms of chances of winning big games.  Perfect system, perfect surroundings, and the perfect coach (that basically let him run the team).

I don't think all of that is true with Brees.  I think he could have won more games somewhere, but wouldn't have put up the same obscene yardage and TD totals.

I think maybe you're missing my very broad point in minutiae here.  Gruden is good with quarterbacks, and Gannon made him look good enough for another team to trade for him.  I similarly think Brees has helped Payton's reputation, while Payton has padded Drew's stats.  I think I'm pretty on record as being pro Brees.  The only QB I'll even entertain arguments about possibly being better than Brees is Brady.  I'm a pretty good Brees homer that way.

It's my gimmick.  

Gruden seems to work well with moderately talented veterans.  Guys like Johnson, Garcia, and Gannon.  I think all of those guys were 10+  years in when Gruden started coaching them and all were very professional.   Like Steve Mariucci, Gruden seems to have an aversion to developing young QB's.  I'm not convinced he's perfect for Carr, who clearly needs some work.  

I wouldn't say your opinion of Brees makes you a homer.  I'm not a Saints fan, and I agree with it.  

I guess it's just perspective.  I see Gannon as a guy who could never have accomplished what he did as he did without Gruden and that team which seemed tailor made for Gannon's skill set.  I see Brees as a guy who's gonna make any coach look like a genius.  Not to throw shade at Payton.  I do think he's the top offensive mind in football today, even if I hate how he uses running backs.

I think that I must have a higher opinion of Gannon than you.  Maybe I was just young at the time, but I remember thinking very highly of his accuracy and his ability to scramble.  I felt like he was a legit Pro Bowler, and the only reason he doesn't have a ring is because he was playing against a team coached by his former head coach and a guy who new him and his playbook so well that it really seems like it should've been against some kind of rule for it to even happen.  But it happened to the Raiders, so... funny.

Nice.  Brees is so underappreciated by football fans in my opinion.  I can't believe it.  He wasn't at his peak for long (and he's looking very mortal these days, I'm afraid), but when he was he did things I've never seen from any other quarterback in terms of accuracy and ability to hit receivers downfield and in stride.  It was like watching a video game.  He was Peyton Manning with a more sophisticated OS.

Re: the bolded part: Ok, I'll bite.  How so?  I have a lot of thoughts on this subject myself.

I'm just not a fan of the committee approach.  I'm a fan of featuring a complete back, and Payton seems committed to always having a specific type of duel backfield.  

To be reductive, it's a power back / speed back type of approach and the speed back rarely gets the bulk of the carries, even when they're the better back.  

That's to say nothing of it's effectiveness.  Payton got 3000 yards out of the RB position this year.  So... yeah.  Obviously he knows what he's doing.

Sometimes?

Payton has been frustratingly Andy Reid-like when it comes run/pass ratio the bulk of his time here, which has been a source of frustration.  The 2009 Championship year was Drew Brees' lowest yardage in his tenure here, and the only time the Saints had a true 50/50 run/pass until this year when somehow he finally got back to it.  That baffles me.

As for your point... I dunno if I have strong feelings on this.  When Payton got here, he was excited by the new toy that was Reggie Bush, and had no interest in playing Deuce McAllister, who was a fucking awesome power back.  And Deuce kept forcing his way into games and was really the difference maker for that 2006 team that made it to the NFC Championship.  I think Payton appreciated the value of that and has tried to replicate it since then, but he's really not a natural when it comes to figuring out who to deploy when, as you allude to.

On the other hand... yeah, this year is a strong rebuttal to everything we've said.

(As an aside, I think his best running back (or at least best-utilized) so far has been Pierre Thomas, who was undrafted, had a relatively short career, but was pretty much always on the field, and was great out of the back field, and flat-out amazing at setting up screen plays.  He always got about 9-yard more than it looked like was possible.)
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#17
He was 57-55 in 7 years in Tampa. Meh.
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#18
(01-04-2018, 01:08 PM)DallasChief Wrote: He was 57-55 in 7 years in Tampa. Meh.

Man, you went native fast.
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#19
I'm an adapter.
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#20
It's gonna be fun when the Chiefs stomp them next year. Wink
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