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STARWARS - SPOILER THREAD
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.

Yeah... just like Yoda and Obi Wan.  Seems to be a theme.
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.
 
You're not really disputing his cowardice... you're only emphasising that he's also a failure.  His failure was due to cowardice, and he handled it by doubling down on his cowardice.  

I'm not sympathetic to him.  Christ, the whole thing makes Ben sympathetic if you ignore the whole 'mass murder of all the other students'.. you know.. like Rey did.
(12-25-2017, 02:23 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.

Yeah... just like Yoda and Obi Wan.  Seems to be a theme.

The Jedi are a flawed dogmatic group of religious fanatics and their tenets are what has CAUSED all of the problems from the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and the new films.  They are the cause.  

This is something that is NEVER directly addressed and I guess we'll continue with that.  Big Grin  

I'm not sure my interpretation would have been better recieved.  My ideas are generally not for mass consumption.  I'd have spent more time shitting on the Jedi and less time dumping on Luke.

Either way, my complaints of this film go far beyond the disappointing portrayal of Luke.

For the record, I'm glad people enjoyed it.  Expressing this opinion generally has resulted in legions of fanbois descending upon me and having a tantrum.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to dislike it.  Just extrapolating on why I found it monumentally disappointing.

Hell, the list I made earlier has several omissions that I just forgot to add.  The lightsaber fights weren't even at the level of Luke/Vader in RotJ
(12-25-2017, 06:23 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:23 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.

Yeah... just like Yoda and Obi Wan.  Seems to be a theme.

The Jedi are a flawed dogmatic group of religious fanatics and their tenets are what has CAUSED all of the problems from the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and the new films.  They are the cause.  

This is something that is NEVER directly addressed and I guess we'll continue with that.  Big Grin  

I'm not sure my interpretation would have been better recieved.  My ideas are generally not for mass consumption.  I'd have spent more time shitting on the Jedi and less time dumping on Luke.

Either way, my complaints of this film go far beyond the disappointing portrayal of Luke.

For the record, I'm glad people enjoyed it.  Expressing this opinion generally has resulted in legions of fanbois descending upon me and having a tantrum.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to dislike it.  Just extrapolating on why I found it monumentally disappointing.

Hell, the list I made earlier has several omissions that I just forgot to add.  The lightsaber fights weren't even at the level of Luke/Vader in RotJ

My experience in talking about this movie with people so far has been that the bigger the Star Wars fanboy, the more the person has disliked it.  Casual viewers have seemed to be on board.  It's a limited sample, sure, but that's been the feedback I've gotten.
(12-25-2017, 06:57 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 06:23 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:23 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.

Yeah... just like Yoda and Obi Wan.  Seems to be a theme.

The Jedi are a flawed dogmatic group of religious fanatics and their tenets are what has CAUSED all of the problems from the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and the new films.  They are the cause.  

This is something that is NEVER directly addressed and I guess we'll continue with that.  Big Grin  

I'm not sure my interpretation would have been better recieved.  My ideas are generally not for mass consumption.  I'd have spent more time shitting on the Jedi and less time dumping on Luke.

Either way, my complaints of this film go far beyond the disappointing portrayal of Luke.

For the record, I'm glad people enjoyed it.  Expressing this opinion generally has resulted in legions of fanbois descending upon me and having a tantrum.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to dislike it.  Just extrapolating on why I found it monumentally disappointing.

Hell, the list I made earlier has several omissions that I just forgot to add.  The lightsaber fights weren't even at the level of Luke/Vader in RotJ

My experience in talking about this movie with people so far has been that the bigger the Star Wars fanboy, the more the person has disliked it.  Casual viewers have seemed to be on board.  It's a limited sample, sure, but that's been the feedback I've gotten.

Not my exact experience.  The three biggest arguments I've had are people who are like "I WAS ALIVE WHEN STAR WARS CAME OUT!!! MY FANDOM IS BIGGER THAN YOUR FANDOM! CAN YOU FEEL IT'S WEIGHT?  IT'S... GIRTH?"

One guy, in response to my argument made here about Luke, said some nonsense about Hitler.  You know, the 'would you kill baby hitler' argument.  By the time he was done he was quite literally calling me a Nazi Sympathizer for not liking Luke's characterization.  

People who overzealously sided WITH me are also fanbois though.

Big Grin   

I think fanbois are just the ones who are getting all goddamn emotional about it one way or the other, and cannot handle that people disagree.  As Mark Hamill said "It's just a movie".  I hated it, but Rian Johnson doesn't deserve death threats over it.  It's silly.

I'm also kinda tired of people using the word 'controversy' to describe it.  Roe Vs. Wade was a controversy.  This is just a polarizing film.

I kinda think about it like this:  This film wasn't made for me.  Look at the villain and the protagonist.  These characters and their personalities are designed to appeal to millennials.  This is THEIR Star Wars.  Rey is insecure, altruistic, and just kind of better than everyone at everything.  A lot of millennials see themselves that way.  Ben Solo (I see no point insisting on this Kylo Ren stuff since the Knights of Ren disappeared from the story) is an angry kid with all kinds of identity issues lashing out at the world because shit doesn't always go his way.  Millenials view their opposition this way.  They can place themselves into the heroes role.  It's accessible to them.  Hell,in terms of characterization Ben Solo might be the deepest character Star Wars has ever given us, which is good.  I just find him more pathetic than scary.  

My generation had their star wars trilogy.  Well... two I guess.  

I'm just old.
While I like star wars.  I am a Star Trek fan.
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(12-25-2017, 11:02 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 06:57 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 06:23 PM)The_Jonas Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:23 PM)NOLA Wrote:
(12-25-2017, 02:05 PM)Chi-town_Chief Wrote: I think there is alot of difference between fight for something when you have nothing to lose and fighting to protect something. Luke truly believed in the force and himself and believed he could turn vader. 

With Ben he saw everything he had worked and fought for being destroyed. Ben rising to take vaders place and bringing a new empire. And luke was partially to blame. And for a split second he thought about taking the easy way out to protect everything. I don't think he would have actually gone through with it but the damage was done and luke lost everything. 

His faith in the force was shaken and his faith in himself was as well because for the first time ever he failed and failed horribly. I don't think it destroys his character just makes him flawed.

Yeah... just like Yoda and Obi Wan.  Seems to be a theme.

The Jedi are a flawed dogmatic group of religious fanatics and their tenets are what has CAUSED all of the problems from the original trilogy, the prequel trilogy, and the new films.  They are the cause.  

This is something that is NEVER directly addressed and I guess we'll continue with that.  Big Grin  

I'm not sure my interpretation would have been better recieved.  My ideas are generally not for mass consumption.  I'd have spent more time shitting on the Jedi and less time dumping on Luke.

Either way, my complaints of this film go far beyond the disappointing portrayal of Luke.

For the record, I'm glad people enjoyed it.  Expressing this opinion generally has resulted in legions of fanbois descending upon me and having a tantrum.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to dislike it.  Just extrapolating on why I found it monumentally disappointing.

Hell, the list I made earlier has several omissions that I just forgot to add.  The lightsaber fights weren't even at the level of Luke/Vader in RotJ

My experience in talking about this movie with people so far has been that the bigger the Star Wars fanboy, the more the person has disliked it.  Casual viewers have seemed to be on board.  It's a limited sample, sure, but that's been the feedback I've gotten.

Not my exact experience.  The three biggest arguments I've had are people who are like "I WAS ALIVE WHEN STAR WARS CAME OUT!!! MY FANDOM IS BIGGER THAN YOUR FANDOM! CAN YOU FEEL IT'S WEIGHT?  IT'S... GIRTH?"

One guy, in response to my argument made here about Luke, said some nonsense about Hitler.  You know, the 'would you kill baby hitler' argument.  By the time he was done he was quite literally calling me a Nazi Sympathizer for not liking Luke's characterization.  

People who overzealously sided WITH me are also fanbois though.

Big Grin   

I think fanbois are just the ones who are getting all goddamn emotional about it one way or the other, and cannot handle that people disagree.  As Mark Hamill said "It's just a movie".  I hated it, but Rian Johnson doesn't deserve death threats over it.  It's silly.

I'm also kinda tired of people using the word 'controversy' to describe it.  Roe Vs. Wade was a controversy.  This is just a polarizing film.

I kinda think about it like this:  This film wasn't made for me.  Look at the villain and the protagonist.  These characters and their personalities are designed to appeal to millennials.  This is THEIR Star Wars.  Rey is insecure, altruistic, and just kind of better than everyone at everything.  A lot of millennials see themselves that way.  Ben Solo (I see no point insisting on this Kylo Ren stuff since the Knights of Ren disappeared from the story) is an angry kid with all kinds of identity issues lashing out at the world because shit doesn't always go his way.  Millenials view their opposition this way.  They can place themselves into the heroes role.  It's accessible to them.  Hell,in terms of characterization Ben Solo might be the deepest character Star Wars has ever given us, which is good.  I just find him more pathetic than scary.  

My generation had their star wars trilogy.  Well... two I guess.  

I'm just old.

I never replied to this post because I don't really have anything to say or add, but it's still worth saying: this is a good post.  Well done.
The Last Jedi was just a mess. I don't think it's a generational thing. But I could be wrong, your arguments are pretty stong, @The_Jonas. The movie was pretty bad, with top notch production value keeping its head above the water.
(01-13-2018, 09:27 AM)CarloM Wrote: The Last Jedi was just a mess. I don't think it's a generational thing. But I could be wrong, your arguments are pretty stong, @The_Jonas. The movie was pretty bad, with top notch production value keeping its head above the water.

Welcome!
Am I the only that just doesn't care about the solo movie? And I'm one that loved the last jedi. I think I'm about to hit the saturation level with star wars. It's not a franchise that we need a movie every year I feel.
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